Ya hit the nail on the head - 100%. ...and this had such potential until the changes posted and well... hmmm.

I disagree. While it will lower the ammount of "I think I'm ganna gank some miners today" types of attacks, it's going to take a bit more numbers to gank a skiff compared to the mack giving you a few more moments to react. I do think the skiff could use something more though, like more agility or a high-slot and CPU to fit a probe launcher. At least then people will want to use a skiff over a mack.

Sure, if you're AFK and don't see the catalysts/brutixes/whatever flying toward you or sit in belt creating a BM.

But, thinking about it more in depth, (just remembered about BM's) the ammount of ships they have to bring is irrelevant to the gank itself, but the EHP is going to be a pretty good gank repelant outside of HAG-like events. As it stands on sisi its going to take ~4 Tornados to alpha a skiff. I don't think someone is going to spend double the isk of their target on a gank outside of extreme cases.

Yes, and it'll cost a lot more to gank a skiff than a mack which is why I doubt we'll see a lot of skiff ganks(besides the fact that I doubt anyone is going to be using it anyway)

Our argument is silly, and it's moved away from the topic. Any ideas on how to make the skiff desirable to use? I've seen a lot of people suggest a high slot for a probe launcher, but that might not be practical because of how strip miners are handled.

I plan to use the procure alot in null sec especially when tanking players, it should possibly give enough time for help to arrive.
They will also be a hell of a lot cheaper to replace.

Even though in Goon's territory we are allowed to mine in almost any location in friendly space, as long as a diplo is involved.

There have been times in the past were we are only allowed to small territory. An afk Cloaker in system shuts down a solar system. WIth the Procurer the loss of a ships won't hurt as much with production being only 15% less than that of a covetor and also the tank will be strong enough that the ratters will be able to come an help save my butt.

Please CCP, lower the Strip Miner yield bonus for Procurer & Skiff !

You are proving why Hulk is pointless (again), & why I'm asking the lower-tiered ships not get such HUGE set of bonuses. As it stands, zerging a miner's training & savings for a Hulk seems decent. But with the current new changes, I would guess training to a Retrever then stopping at Mining Barge III to train up ore processing would be better it would seem.

The other bonuses are OK currently in testing, but to make a Hulk/Covetor retain to be a reasonable investment, the mining bonuses IMHO it should look something like this:

1HS barge + 50% yield bonus = 1.50 HS yield
2HS barge + 25% bonus = 2.25 HS yield
3 HS barge + 0% bonus = 3 HS yield

So, this makes the getting a Hulk for solo speed-farming the top ores (ISK/m3) in a system a decent investment for some, & perhaps getting a fleet for a Hulk more worth the effort. A Procurer/skiff will still be a great tanky stripper even at 1.50 HS yield, and a retriever/mackinaw would still be great at "park and mine" at a 2.25 HS yield.

The only thing I think is wrong with the Procurer/Retriever hulls is the bonus should be a skill bonus rather than a role bonus.

What's wrong with the Procurer having a +40%/level bonus to strip miner yield?

the hulk still is the superior yield ship

I did not say that the new bonuses to mid & low slots, extra cap, extra ore cargo, extra drones, etc should be done away with at all! I'm just saying that 1 strip miner should not be directly equal to 3 strip miners, that is all. You did not read my numbers.

I think your idea is reaonable; maybe the numbers have to be tweaked, but yes those who skill up should be rewarded!

+40%/level of Mining barge puts it at +200% at Mining Barge 5, then it *could* have an exhumer skill bonus as well.

As to it having the lowest production? That's the tradeoff for it having the biggest tank.
This is what people in the business refer to as "game balance".

That entirely depends on what you are doing with it.

I certainly wouldn't recommend it for secure fleet operations, for exactly the reason you note, but if I needed to take a mining fleet out in lowsec it would definitely be high on my list.

Lowsec is redundant in many ways, but we've got it anyway and it does have its uses.

Same with the skiff. I've found good uses for even the old skiff, the new one will have different uses.

OK Dave please explain how the Skiff is worthless as a mining vessel, I am curious

Yeah they suck so badly I am changing all my alts from Hulks to skiffs. On a quick play on SiSi, I easily had 86k ehp and mining about 25% below a hulk. So I don't have to worry as much about loosing a 300 mill ship. Lets face it at 300 mill a pop it really takes out of the profit margin if you get ganked.

The only difference in mining yeald between the skiff and the mackinaw is the mackinaw can fit a 3rd mlu, other than that there base yealds are the exact same. I do agree that the +2 warp core strength is necessary to calll it a deep space mining vessel but on that same note, none of the barges have a boost to warp core strength so that is a moot point. If any of the, are cought in deep space they will pop, with the large amount of ehp you might be able to call for some back up before you die. The ore hold is not great but it is not that bad either, it is good to jump into a belt mine a couple cycles and get out, it is not a extend operation ship. One thing most dont realize is that the skiff is stilll going to be the cheapest exhumer.